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Feb. 22, 2023

"Unlock Your Neurodivergent Superpowers With Michelle Markman"

On this episode, some nuggets of wisdom that could help people in their personal and professional lives. If you want to be sure to hear his upcoming episodes, make sure to follow the website and Linkedin


Sandy Sommer and Michelle Markman discussed topics related to neurodivergence and how it can help people in their personal and professional lives. Michelle is a relationship coach for neurodivergent individuals and shared ways to build a business as well as how to manage relationships. They discussed the importance of community for neurodivergent people, and how tools like sensory deprivation tank therapy and LSD and ketamine can be beneficial. They also touched on the power of language, and how negative experiences can be turned into superpowers. Sandy shared that with the ever-evolving technology, individuals alive today should not worry about their jobs. Lastly, Michelle shared her own experience being a late diagnosed autistic person and how she helps others who have gone through the same process.


The conversation focuses on the idea of neurodivergent individuals embracing their superpowers and how to leverage their strengths and scaffold their weaknesses. It was mentioned how society often dictates how people should be versus how they actually are. An example is given of how the Israeli army uses autistic individuals to look for changes in aerial photographs that others would not normally notice. It is also pointed out that neurodivergent individuals are often hypersensitive to sounds, light and other sensations, which can lead to difficulties in job interviews due to them not presenting themselves in the way expected by society. The conversation ultimately focuses on the need to embrace neurodivergent individuals' unique abilities and to create an environment where they are accepted and appreciated.


The conversation is between two people who are discussing how to find the right people for their business. The speaker is a coach who works with neurodivergent individuals. They discuss the process of growing their business, which includes creating a podcast, nurturing a Facebook group, and getting referrals from clients. The speaker also talks about how people with neurodivergence often have difficulty with self-love and negative self-talk. They explain how language and the negativity bias can influence how people view themselves and how they interpret what they hear. Finally, they discuss how they have been using Chat GPT to explore its capabilities and limitations.


The conversation is about the success of neurodivergent people. They discussed how it may be difficult for those who are neurodivergent to climb the corporate ladder and be successful. They discussed how people with neurodivergent traits need to learn social skills and cultivate relationships with both neurotypical and neurodivergent people in order to be successful. They also discussed how the pandemic has changed their relationship with work and with how they run their lives, and how it has given them the opportunity to learn to accept and love themselves more.


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Welcome to a neurodivergent selling podcast. 1s Very happy to have you here with us today. My name is Sandy Summer. I'm your host, and I'm welcoming Michelle Markham. Michelle has coaching business for neurodivergent folks, specifically in the relationship realm. She's late diagnosed autistic person, and she has some great wisdom to share, and we have a great time. Jade again, thanks for joining us, Michelle. Yeah. So? I'm Michelle Markman. I'm a neuro divergent relationship coach. I am a late diagnosed autistic individual. Didn't find out until I was in my late 20s that I was neurodivergent. And I help other people who either think they might be neurodivergent or are recently late diagnosed to really understand 1s this new sort of reframing of their entire life history and how to go through the process of mourning that. Neurotypical identity that we all think we have until we find out that we're neurodivergent how to really embrace our superpowers and how to leverage our strengths and scaffold our weaknesses. So that's pretty much what I do. Oh, well, welcome. It's a pleasure to talk to you. 2s It's interesting because we hear so much now about superpowers and in some ways is I think it sounds cliche, but on the other hand, it's true. I've seen in so many circumstances how if we let society dictate where we're supposed to be versus how we are, then there's so many things that. 1s We end up focusing on that don't really matter. And things that do matter are things that might not necessarily fit within the frameworks of the way things are thought to be. I guess this is the best way to put it. I see like for example, a couple of weeks ago I was looking at I don't even remember how I ended up going down this rabbit hole, but it was about folks that are autistic, that have patterned pattern recognition skills, that are superpowers. They're not like other peoples in Israel 1s the Israeli army uses. 1s They have a whole staff of folks that are autistic, that are able to look at the pictures and see aerial photograph of an area that they're trying to protect, for example. And something will be not where it was before. There's a new thing that wasn't there and nobody else would even notice it. 2s The other thing that is related to that, 1s and you might have some sense about this also, is that 1s if you're nervous virgin, a lot of times you're hypersensitive to sounds and 1s light and whatnot. So hear these stories about guys are autistic that will show up to a job interview 2s noise reducing headphones and sunglasses and then don't get the job because they didn't present themselves 2s the way that everybody thinks we're supposed to present ourselves. And I think that companies really need to be aware that interviews are not job. I don't know. Most of the interviews I've been on are all the same. They have nothing to do with your job and your ability to do it right. It's a performance. So basically you're coming in to perform and just because you can perform well at a job interview doesn't mean you can do the job. No, if there's a guy that is clearly a guy or gal that can do something, I don't care. And 2s it's fascinating on one hand, it's frustrating on the other because I think we miss out on a lot of people that can really be of benefit to whatever we're trying to accomplish or whatever organization. We have those kinds of things. Now 2s first let me ask you what's the process that you are utilizing right now to grow your business and tell us a little bit about your business too. And then after that, tell us about how you find people that are looking for help. Yeah, absolutely. So what I'm doing right now to grow my business is I'm going a podcast. That's one of the things that I'm doing just to get the word out there. I have a Facebook group, so I nurture my Facebook group with content. 2s I am coaching several clients right now and I do also get referrals from my clients. What was your follow up question? 2s The follow up question was. 2s You know what? Let's see. I mean, I'm going to have to edit this because now I can't remember either. I asked you it's okay. No, it's okay. I asked you how you're going about getting clients. And then also 1s there's so many different ways as a coach, especially one that works with folks that are neurodivergent, you can build your business lots of different ways. What's the primary way that you're building your business right now? Niche specific Facebook groups. So my ideal client is a neuro divergent individual who's either self diagnosed or late diagnosed and is looking to really understand their new diagnosis or new understanding of how they interact with the world and leverage their strengths and scaffold their weaknesses to really just create a life, relationships and community that they love and they can thrive in. That sounds really interesting. One of the things I think that I know has been a challenge for me, and I think growing up with a sister with Asperger's, I think was a challenge for her as well, is self love. We beat ourselves up without mercy. 3s I know myself talk sometimes borders on well, it doesn't border on I know. I would never talk to someone the way that I talk to myself in my internal dialogue. 2s Is that a problem or a challenge for most divergent people or is that something that is something I've just had to deal with myself? No. So I would say across the board, anyone that has an internal dialogue is really prone to having this what we call judge come up with person who just speaks to you in this horrible manner that's inside your mind. 3s Yes. And I would say that it's more of an issue for neurodivergent individuals because we've had so much of our lives. We've been told, you're doing this wrong, you're acting wrong. This is wrong. So how much of that voice is people from your past that have told you you're wrong and how much of it is really your internal voice? So I think being able to separate the understanding of that voice as critics from your past can really help people. But it's definitely a big challenge for us, especially with the monkey mind chatter that happens. 1s It can be 2s sometimes can be overwhelming. I think 2s it's. 2s Gosh language is so powerful, and 1s unfortunately, negative language carries even more power than positive language. And what I mean by that is that if I tell you, Michelle, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and it has a negative tone to it, there's a very, very good chance that you're going to believe me and buy into it no matter what it is. On the other hand, if I say something, it's positive, then you're likely to be more interested in verifying. And to a degree, and I'm not sure how it biologically is a benefit to us. So it goes back to the whole negativity bias, right? So we as individuals are hardwired, like you're saying, to notice things that are negative, to see problems so that we can survive. And it really goes back to that kind brain, that survival brain, where we're out on the plains of Africa and we see the tiger. You have to be aware of the negative things or the things that can be of risk to you. So we have sort of this bias that's built into us where we just see negative or positive. And also you have a certain frame that you've constructed throughout your life through your experiences. And so if what you are experiencing or what you're hearing doesn't line up with the framework that you've constructed, you're going to toss it out, right? So someone can say, I really like your dolphin fin, and you're like, I don't have a dolphin fin. That's out the window. 2s It doesn't have to be that extreme. No. 3s People fascinate me 3s the other day. 1s I've been using Chat GPT as a toy and as a tool, actually. I've been trying to figure out what its limitations are, how it can help me, how I don't want to use it. And there are certain things, and I think this is something I actually probably could have gotten on Google or maybe not, I don't know. I was looking for ten of the best quotes that were about neurodiversion selling. Well, Chat TBT came back to me and said, well, we don't have any quotes about neurodiversion selling, but we do have ten quotes for you about success with neurodiversion. Right? 2s Which I thought was cool. And one of them was that. 2s It was that what was it exactly? I'm going to have to look right now because it was that good, but it was about that. We are the people that make the world an interesting place that would be boring without us. 1s So true. Yeah, it is. I mean, it's you know, 2s I wonder how, though, 1s when you think about it, I think an inordinate amount of people that are nd are business leaders, are people that think outside the box, literally and figuratively. 2s But we're not always the best employees. 3s And so it's interesting. Okay, so you're the CEO now, and typically that means that you started somewhere, maybe not on the bottom, but you started in a place that is lower than where you are right now. So I wonder how 1s people that may feel and think a little bit differently than other people 1s are able to rise and cream to the top. 1s And I think the way they do it is that they are able to take some behaviors, some ways of thinking that aren't necessarily, on first glance, consider positive and turn them into the superpowers that we've talked about. I just wonder. 2s On how we learn to do that because I don't know that it's necessarily a native ability. 1s I'm not sure. What do you think about that? So I think that throughout our lives, we definitely learn a lot of skills about how to those of us that tend to be either 2s work ladder climbers or tend to be sort of high achievers. And I think a lot of it comes down to, at least in my experience, 1s learned social skills and learned relationship skills. Because when I'm looking back on my history and my success and 1s the jobs that I've had in the past and getting those jobs, it's always been that I've gotten a referral from a friend of mine relationship or a position at a company that they're working at. So I think it's so important for us, especially as neurodivergent people, to have strong relationships and to learn how to cultivate relationships with both neurotypical and neuro divergent people because the world runs on social interactions, 2s whether that's our first sort of strength or not, right? 3s On the surface, 2s most people would probably say that Sandy is 2s very outgoing. We'll talk to anybody, and 1s he's an extrovert. While all those things are true. 2s But they're not necessarily my default or default. 1s I didn't realize until the pandemic exactly how much energy being the way that I am takes, because once I've got a break I'm not wishing this on anybody, but once I got a break, I was like, okay, it's okay to be by myself. I don't have to be around people all the time. I used to have a little bit of a fear, I think, 1s of being alone and not really being comfortable in my head all the time. 1s And so the pandemic actually gave me an opportunity to 1s learn to not only accept myself, but love myself in ways that I didn't before. I wonder if 2s that's an atypical experience that I've had or if that's something that other people in your coaching business do you talk to anybody at all that has expressed anything that's anywhere close to what I just said or no? Yeah, definitely. I think the pandemic has really changed our relationship with work and with how we run our lives. Before the pandemic, everything was very much in person, 1s everything from employment to grocery shopping, everything. You had to show up for it. And since going through the pandemic, we realized that we can really automate a lot of the things that we were doing in person by hand. For example, I get my groceries delivered now because it's just easier. I can spend time with my family instead of at the grocery store dealing with fluorescent mites and noisy kids and all that stuff. 3s I think it's really understanding our priorities and actually prioritizing them. And I do hear that from my clients as well, that their priorities have not necessarily shifted, but they've become aware of what their priorities actually are. And they're starting to honor those priorities by doing things like finding remote work and getting groceries delivered instead of going to the grocery store and asking for the supports they need, like noise canceling headphones at work or your plugs or something like that. Well, you know, it's interesting that you mentioned the groceries because I live in New Orleans and for a number of reasons. The first reason being that we have the world's worst drivers here. We also have because we have floods and we have a lot of auto theft, so our insurance premiums are insane. 2s I've got a perfect driving record. I even was a truck driver at one point. 2s And 2s they wanted the last renewal. They wanted $675 a month premium. A month? Yeah. I'm like, wow, I got rid of my car. I uber everywhere now. And if I need a car, I rent it. Right? Well, I used to walk to the grocery store, which is less than a mile from my house, and then I would take an Uber home with the bags. Every once in a while, I carry them back, but a lot of times it was too much. But once I figured out that it was actually cheaper to have them delivered than to actually walk and then have Uber, taking the Uber home was more expensive than the delivery. In fact, with my grocery store, if I order $35, then there's no delivery fee. Right. 2s It's a game changer. It is. And I mean, 1s I don't like shopping. That's the one thing that social anxiety, where it really kicks in. 1s If somebody comes up to me in a store and asks me if I would need help, they might as well put a gun to my head and said, 1s give me all your money. It stresses me. Yeah. I just laugh because it's relatable. Yeah. So Amazon, I would have a lot more money if there was not Amazon, because I wouldn't shop. But for Amazon, 1s I was a customer in the beginning because I love to read. But then as they grew their product line to include everything, like, if you can't find it there, you might as well just not look anywhere else because you're not going to find it. Right, right. 2s Amazon, and I mentioned earlier to you, Instagram is like a thief. I don't know what it is about their ads, but I don't care what the product well, actually, I shouldn't say that because one of the things that they do is they know what you're interested in, either from paying attention to your phone conversations or whatever they do. 2s I think they are pretty much on the mark. It's something you're interested in, something you're involved in, whatever it might be. I don't see a whole lot of things that cross my eyes that isn't interesting. At least now the challenge with that is that we've given up. Maybe you've heard the story of, like, if you put a frog. 1s In a pan of cool water and turn it up. It turns out gradually the temperature keeps going up, and then they cooked it up because they never jump out of the water. Well, if you throw them in a hot water, they want to jump right out. Right? So we've given up our 2s privacy in ways that it happens so slowly that we're like, Whoa, what happened? Right. And I think if we've resigned ourselves in some ways that, well, it's hard to backpedal on that from where we are right now. And some of it I don't mind, because some of it really is convenient. I don't have to sift through things that I'm not interested in because they know what I'm interested in. On the other hand, it's a little bit creepy. And I think 4s I don't know that's it's probably too late to turn it around, unfortunately, but it's I do all I can to maintain some at least belief that I've got some privacy, but I don't know if I have any. 2s And I feel like. 3s I don't know, with any kind of artificial intelligence or machine learning with pros and cons, obviously, because absolutely. 2s Well, it can make a big difference in your day and the things you have to do. 2s Although Chat and GPT is not working right now, the servers are probably overflow. But I've asked it some very just fact based questions in the last couple of weeks where for me to find the information out. 1s I think it's worth noting that you should probably verify a lot of it because there are glitches in it. So it's not perfect. But if it's not life or death and I ask it for a list of quotes 1s and then I'm like, yeah, I've read these quotes before. I've asked it for quotes. I've asked it for 2s step by step instructions on how to do something that I had procrastinated for weeks and weeks and weeks and weeks and I asked it to give me a framework. It took 3 seconds to give me the framework and it was actually the framework to get the podcast off the ground. That's awesome. Yeah, and 2s they call them engineered prompts, I guess now. So it speaks normal language. You don't have to know code to get it to spit back information. And I just said, Look, I have a podcast, I know what I want it to be about, but I have only a concept at this point. Give me the framework to take it from where we are right now, which is an idea, and to actually having the first episode online didn't miss anything. And that's not cheating, that's utilizing a tool, right? Yeah, absolutely. And it's going to be interesting though. My son is a freshman in college and they've had discussions at university about Chat GPT because they're concerned about doing your own work and plagiarism and those are things I think that they need be concerned with. On the other hand, he goes to an art collection. He wants to be a film maker. And one of his favorite songwriters had a fan who had asked Chat GBT write a song in the voice of. 3s What's his name? Nick Cave. Nicave. He's Australian. And Nick Cave's voice about so and so well, so the guy did it, and then he sent the lyrics to Nick Cave and said, chad, CBT did this. What do you think? And Nick Cave's response was, well, it used some language that I'm familiar with that used a little of my voice. I hear it. But his computer chat TPT has not had life's experience and has not lived a life, has all these facts and whatnot inside its engine, but that's not the same as having lived. And people are worried about their jobs and leverage. 1s And honestly, I think a lot of people are worried about their jobs are people a lot of them are divergent because they tend to be encoding. There's some things that I don't think I don't think anybody that's alive right now is got to worry about their jobs as long as they learn how to leverage technology. 2s There's always been new innovation has always driven some. 1s Opportunities away and created new ones. 1s Henry Ford made it so every horse was unemployed, basically. 1s Right. So I don't think the end is near to me. It's exciting 1s and 1s I guess the fear for a lot of people is and we're starting to see this in northern Europe, I think to a degree is, look, work is 1s human dignity. Most people want to work, no matter what the politicians tell you. Most people want to work. And there's a certain dignity that goes along with work. If we automate everything so that there's not much opportunity, then I don't know that it destroys our financial situation. It would require it to be revamped somehow because I don't think you can starve people just because we've become so efficient. What do you think about that? Right now, I think we're still a ways out from fully automating systems. And like you're saying, I think there's a lot of opportunity around automation that's come out and around the technology that's out there. 1s Really, anybody has the opportunity to start an online business, if you want to do drop shipping or you want to do really any kind of online business, you can do that as a side hustle now and technology has given us that opportunity. I'm not too familiar with the Chat GPT platform. I've heard of it, but I haven't really checked it out, so I'm not too familiar with that one. But I think that, like you're saying, we're still quite a ways out from automation, taking jobs away from people. And as we continue to learn and really stay on the cutting edge of the technology that's coming out, that gives us the most opportunity to contribute to our workplaces or start our own businesses. And I really think that we still have amazing opportunities out here, if not the best opportunity that we've had available in history because of the internet and because of technology. And so if that's something that you are finding challenges, I definitely encourage you to reach out to me. We can talk about that 1s as well. I think you hit something that I totally agree with. I think that if you change well, there's a quote. If you change the way you look at things the things you look at change. 1s Yeah. It's absolutely all 3s you can say, oh, gosh, it's so hard, all these jobs, 1s computers, blah, blah, blah. Or you can say, look, man, there's so many opportunities that are being created right now because you can Sidehouse your way to a huge level of success depending on what that level is, whether it's time freedom or it's finding financial freedom that you've got multiple income streams or a combination of all those kinds of things. 2s If I was young right now, not that I'm terribly old, I'm not going to say how old I am, but it's the new 20 is what it is. Okay, we're starting out. Yeah, 2s it's mind blowing to me, like all the things you can do right now in this gig economy. 2s As an example, you're not all that familiar with chat GPT. Well, you have to prompt the engineer prompts to get the information you're looking for. Okay? So the better the prompt is just like the old saying, garbage in, garbage out. If you've got a good prompt, then you're going to get a pretty good answer. Well, there's companies now that are and I'm not an expert in this, but this is my understanding is that they are premium making templates for the prompts that go through GPT, which is an open source language. And that the request that their customers are making that go through the template. 1s Are then coming out through still the language that Chat GBT has. So 2s there's some platforms that will do personalized cold email for you that they're really good. If you try to do the same thing yourself in Chat GBT, it's not very good. So the only difference is the template and that they've preconstructed it and just allowed you to fill in the blanks, kind of, I think. And that's not the way it looks as a customer, but that's ultimately, I think what's going on is that you're giving it the stuff to customize and then it makes it happen the way that it's going to be. Look and feel the best. So 1s I just found out today there are companies now that are hiring contract workers to do what employees are doing now. 1s But if you want to do five gigs, you could find five of those and spend 1s 10 hours a week on each one. And depending on where the customers were and what the geographic footprint was, you could 1s potentially work, like part time. And then. 1s Sleep weird hours. I don't I mean, there's just so many different so many different ways, right? People can be accommodated now, like you. It's global. Like, I call Israel, I call India. They're on opposite sides of the world, you know? And do I have to get up and make some phone calls at weird times? I've done it. I don't like doing it necessarily, but I know people that work remotely that live in Greece now. Now, if I was going to work remotely 2s form remote, I probably would pick some place that was more in line with the hours in the markets I was serving only because if you're going to be in Greece, don't you want to be in Greece? You don't want to work at night and sleep all day. Costa Rica is a place that a lot of people I know are doing remote work in now because they've got a remote visa, work visa, and it's Central Time, so it's the same time I'm on. But you can live on the beach and surf and do what I do, and it's like $1,000 a month rent. Yeah. Some countries will even sponsor you to move there. I'm not sure which ones they are now, but I know that they're out there to do some research. Costa Rica was looking for dollars being replaced that had been taken away from the Pandemic. There are states that are doing that now, like in West Virginia, if you're like, into mountaineering and skiing and hiking. It's a beautiful state, but there's not a whole lot going on there, right? So they're focused on trying to find people that are remote worker that have a certain level of income that 2s joining us today. 1s We really appreciate your support and 1s we plan on big things for this show. Jesse is going to be joining his Cohost next month, and we're excited to be a voice and provide a voice for folks in the neurodivergent selling community specifically. If you have any questions or comments, certainly go to our website at www.neurodivergentselling.com and you can leave voicemail or a message there as well. Thank you. 3s Have all these outdoor activities available to them and they're paying 1s $12,000 stipend 1s that they pay, I think, $800 a month for the first year and then lump sum at the end of it. 4s You can work from home or they're all in university towns. They've got 1s a place where you can, like an incubator where a bunch of people that are remote workers can all work in the same place and have some level of collegiality or whatever. But I know Tennessee. They're doing it in Kentucky. They're doing it in Indiana. Ohio? Iowa? Kansas. It's a lot of places that don't have real wide tax bases, so they're trying to develop 1s an income tax base which 2s you can live. It helps companies, it helps individuals. Because, think about it, if you're a company now, all of a sudden you've got your talent. Pool is not defined by your geography, you know, and you've got people that you can talk to. So you can find the best people, not the people that live in the best area that you live, that you're in. Like where you are. Doesn't matter. Um right. And I I first worked remotely in 2005, and I remember being concerned about it because as an ADHD, we're not always focused. We're either hyper focused or not focused, one or the other. And so I was concerned about my self discipline, but what I found out was that the lack of distractions with the social interaction that you have in an office 1s helped me tremendously. 1s I could get with hyper focus. I could get my work done in half the time or do yeah, you can definitely get a lot more work done, especially working remote. And I actually recommend a lot of my clients to look into remote work, because as neurodiversion individuals, we can just be so overstimulated in the office. There's fluorescent lights. There's all the relationships that we're navigating. There are temperatures, changes that are out of our control. There's just so many external factors that are distracting for us, and we can be so much more productive when we're working remote. So it's really a great opportunity that we have now. We do. It is. Because, like you said, there's just the ability to accommodate everybody in an office, whether no matter who they are or what they're doing, is pretty limited when you think about it, because I don't even know where the thermostat is or was in any office I've ever worked in. Right. And temperature is definitely something that I deal with. 2s I don't think that if you take my temperature, it's any different than anyone else's. But I feel like I'm hot all the time. Right. 3s Pretty typical for neuro divergence. 3s I like to feel like room temperature. In other words, it's not hot. It's not cold. But it's funny that's only in climate controlled environments. I love the heat outside, but it's when I'm inside, I can't stand to be hot. If I'm inside or cold, I like to be comfortable. And one thing that I did and I don't know if you've ever done this or know anybody that has, it may not be the right thing to do for a lot of people, because I think it might be too much. 1s Have you ever heard of sensory deprivation tanks? Yes. Okay. 1s The way they're designed, at least the ones I've been in, you feel like you're in the womb, because it's not you don't feel anything. Like, you can't see anything. You can't hear anything. And so the water temperature is actually slightly higher than our body temperature, because it would it would feel it would feel cold or no, I'm sorry. That's not right. 98 degrees. 1s It's just a little bit below that to feel like there's no temperature at all time. When I was in a century, I've done it twice, three times, and it's usually an hour, and it feels like I'm three minutes, literally, because there's no. 2s Now, are you claustrophobic at all? Because I have not tried this due to claustrophobia. 2s See, the thing about it is they there's all sorts of warning signs like because not everybody, it's not going to work for everybody. So they like pause. So you can bang on the door to get let out if you need to. In the very beginning, there's no light, there's no sound. You hear your heartbeat. Seriously. So I don't know what makes people feel closed in, but don't you need some kind of stimulus to feel that? That's what I'm at. I don't know. I don't know. I'd have to try it. I do know that as a child and even sometimes now, I like to step into closets and turn the light off because it's like a sort of self created and sensory deprivation tank. You're taking away all the external stimuli. No sound, no light. It's crazy. 1s But I first heard about it back in Gosh. It was probably the 80s. There was a movie called Altered States that William Hurt was in and it was based off of a true story, I believe he was a research scientist who purposefully took hallucinogenics and got in this century deprivation situation to see what impact that would have on mind bending chemicals. Because if there's no senses, like what happens, right? 3s That was when I first heard about them. And then it was until probably 2000. The first time was in the 90s in Arizona. And I was like, wow. 1s At least for me, it would eliminate anxiety. For a couple of weeks, 5s everything slowed down so much that I felt like a lot more in control. 2s I don't know how to explain it other than that, but that's why brought it up because I wonder for those of us that tend to get over stimulated, being understimulated to the degree that there's no stimulation at all, what does that do? I don't know. It's worth finding out about, I think though, because 2s it's different than any other experience I've ever had as far as. 5s The way that it impacted me, I would do it more often. But 2s they're not cheap, at least here, right? Well, 1s it costs about the same as a massage. It's like a dollar a minute, probably, something like that. 3s I think they make them for home use now, too. The problem with the weather, what the problem is though, is that the solution is I don't remember what the ratio is between 1s alum salt and water, but it's significantly towards the salt, because you're floating literally like you're in the Dead Sea is how you float. That's really cool. Yeah. But because of that, you have to have a very special filtration system. So it's not just a breeding ground for all sorts of organisms. 1s So it'd be almost like installing a sauna at your house. But I could really see how that would potentially reset your nervous system. Something that I do in my coaching business is I help my clients with dealing with overstimulation and also dealing with understimulation. So there's tools that you can utilize for overstimulation and tools for under stimulation. So some of us as neurodivergent individuals are sensory seeking. If you tend to go for bubbly drinks or 1s you like to go out and go dancing, that can be an expression of sensory seeking. So there's tools that you can use to manage and moderate the level of sensory exposure that you're having. So I could really see how a sensory deprivation tank could potentially reset your nervous system. That's really interesting. 1s Yeah, that's probably the best way to describe it is it is a total reset 1s because it literally well, I guess nobody knows for sure, but they talk about it as if it's back to the womb. You're in this dark place that you can't hear anything and you don't feel anything because it's the perfect temperature for your body. So my guess is that if the womb is not like that, it's got to be closed. I've never actually admitted this publicly. I may have to edit this out. We'll see. But I was microdosing LSD for a long time, 1s and it is absolutely 2s a great tool for anxiety. 2s If you read about it, it's been approved by the FDA. 5s I know for a fact ketamine is being used in clinics, that one's for sure, FDA approved. And that's supposed to treat anxiety for up to several months. And it's in a guided session where you're with a clinician and they give you a ketamine dose. And it's supposed to really just yeah. MDMA. I think it's been approved now, too. Yes, MDMA was just approved, and it's. 2s The way, the protocol for it would be interesting to see how the protocols are in a clinical situation versus what they anecdotally were, like, how they were constructed. Anecdotally, because the path for 2s LSD was ten. Well, you would take one full size dose and make a tincture out of it that you would then take one 10th of the Sanctuary 3s every three days because of the half life of LSD. So if you did it too much and you would develop 2s what's the word I'm looking for? You would have resistance to it. So the fact that goes through a half life build up a tolerance. Exactly. 1s But you don't feel like when you do micro dosing like that, I would say you might feel a little bit shinier and brighter, but you don't feel anything that is close to hallucination. But 2s at least I was more grounded and less anxious. Now, the protocol that was in place from the organization that I educated myself through, which was all university based stuff, they just 1s wasn't legal at this time, but it was that you microdose for 90 days and then do a 60 day break. 1s Interesting. But then after the 60 day break, you did what they called a heroic dose, which was like three or four times the normal dose. And that would destroy all anxiety for like what they found out is that even if you didn't microdose after that, that you were going to get the benefit of microdosing for about a 90 to 120 day period. I think that's kind of how they're administering the ketamine. I don't think it's an ongoing treatment. I think it's like no, you do it. 3s It's interesting. So LSD was 1s discovered, I guess well, I don't know when it was discovered originally, the way that it was manufactured was through these zygotes from mold that was in that would show up and rye the grain. 2s So then they synthesized that. The Sand Labs in Germany synthesized it, and it was very cheap to make, and it was very effective to treat alcoholism and some other addictions. And 3s I'm not a huge conspiracy theorist, but there's some evidence that the. 2s This is going to sound crazy, but that some of the big 1s liquor companies and beer companies and cigarette companies 1s basically lobbied against the drug being marketed because it was, it was, it was not illegal drug. It was, it was legal until the early sixty s and then it became 1s a controlled dangerous substance. Right. And there's evidence sense that 2s the army was using it. The CIA definitely used it in some stuff, but 2s it was dangerous economically, I think more so than it was as far as our health. And if it's going to be an economic challenge for companies with a lot of money to lobby, it's not out of the realm of reality that they could have lobbied that way. It's certainly yeah, absolutely. I don't think it sounds crazy, to tell you the truth. I really don't. Unfortunately, you're right. The world runs on money. Yeah, it does. 2s But this is one of those things that I could talk about this forever when I see something that's of value to a lot of people. But it's not real profitable because it's so cheap. Now. See, the thing about pharmaceuticals is now that it doesn't matter how cheap it is to make, you can charge whatever you want because the government doesn't care. 3s And look, I think drug companies need to be able to reinvest in R and D. That's what drives that whole thing. But at the same time should. 1s Insulin be a luxury for people? Of course not. It's just I hate to interrupt Sandy, but I have to 1s get on another call at 04:00. So just so we're on the same, I'm enjoying the conversation. I'm going to challenge editing this down into something that's digestible because I feel like I'm really all over the place today, more than usual. And I apologize for that, but I'm going to do my best. So your coaching 3s and I don't know that 2s I was coaching, teaching. We don't grade people who are coaching. But how do you measure success? Or is it completely up to your client to measure whether they feel like it's successful? 2s The work they do with you, how does that work? So tangible results. I help my clients get tangible results. So most of my clients are looking to either establish a romantic relationship, improve a romantic relationship they have, establish friendships, improve their friendships, and most of them are looking to develop and cultivate a sense of community. So what I help them to do is find partners, improve relationships with partners, find friends, develop friendships, and be part of and establish a sense of strong community and to be part of their community. And so these are really tangible results. And we'll also work on what the client wants to do. So at the beginning of our first session, we say we get together and talk. We figure out the client's top three strengths and top three weaknesses so that they really know where they're coming from as far as strengths and weaknesses. And in our follow up sessions, we'll figure out what that client's goal is in a three month period so they can set their own goal. I can help them set a goal, but the overarching results that they're getting are those tangible results of forming new relationships, strengthening the relationships they have, and having a strong community around them. So tangible results is really what it's all about. Let me ask you this. 4s Community is something that I keep hearing over and over again in the neuro divergent universe, I guess. 3s Do you think that's because it's sometimes 1s we don't always feel like we belong and so we're looking for that? Or is it something else or is it a combination of things? I think that most of us, as zero divergent individuals, have at one point or another thought, am I an alien? 3s How am I on this planet? Like, I don't relate to these people. They don't understand me. I mean, you go through so much rejection when you're Neuro divergent. I would say it's fairly common to have a lot more rejection than a Neurotypical person would have in social context. And so I think that establishing cultivating, understanding how to form community is is so important for us because we need community just as much as a Neurotypical person needs community. The average life expectancy of a Neuro divergent I'm sorry, an Autistic person is 16 years less than that of a Neurotypical person. And that's equivalent. Yeah, that's equivalent to a person who's isolated. So an isolated person has about 16 to 17 year less life expectancy expectancy than a person with a strong community. So having a strong community, having strong relationships, having good friendships is really literally going to save your life, and it's going to prolong your life, and you're going to have a better quality of life. So it's really important. 5s This just popped in my head. So I have no idea if it's anything related to this. But if we isolate, you could say, well, our immune system is not going to be as well developed because we're not going to have encountered as many. Is that part of it or is it something else? 3s I mean, I know it has a lot to do with mental health. Physical health mean it's a holistic thing. And we don't just need to have online relationships, we need to have in person relationships. There's something that we get out of being in the same physical space with individuals that we can't get from being online. So it's so important to have a balance of both online and sort of IRL in real life relationships because we need to have both. Well, I was talking a guy one time not too long ago who does 3s online relationship coaching for IRL, 2s and one thing I didn't ask him, so I'll ask you, is that. 2s How do folks that are divergent, like, how do they develop a level of comfort about approaches or organizations or activities where they're going to meet people that they want to meet, and they want to meet them 1s and have it feel 1s good and not contrived and also safe. Yeah. US. So, I mean, there's a certain element of practice that goes into that. There's also what I work on in my coaching program, which is self acceptance and learning to love yourself. And when you can really embrace yourself, it's easier to put yourself out there with other people, and it's easier to go through the rejections that everyone faces. So I think one of the key things that I tell my clients is if you have a special interest or you have an interest that you're passionate about, find a group that does that interest. If it's ceramics, take a ceramic glass. Meet people that are interested in ceramics. You can talk to them about what it is that you're passionate about and form a relationship based on common interest. Yeah, that's interesting that you brought that up, because what I have found is that 2s I'm interested in a lot of different things, but when I'm hyper interested in something, 1s it can be almost weird to somebody else. I don't know. 1s And I think a lot of us have that happen. Well, that's why they call them special interests, because we get very focused on our interests, and I know everything there is to know about it. If I'm not interested, I don't care. I don't know nothing. It's not important. Right. 2s And that level of special interest can seem a little offcoding, I think, to some people. 3s But it's what makes the world interesting. If everybody was the same. 1s Then it would not be nearly as entertaining as it is right now. And as they're true. You ever heard the quote, fact is stranger than fiction? You know, half the some of the best stories somebody wrote wrote them as a fiction piece. They wouldn't accept. A publisher wouldn't accept, this is too out there. This isn't unrealistic. And your story has got to be based on something real, at least, you know? So 3s it is interesting. Now, let me ask you another question, though, because I was thinking about this too. Sometimes I feel like it's not bad to go to a place where people have slightly different interests than you, because I think that in a relationship there should be and I could be way off here. You can tell me if I'm right here, but there's like my story, your story, and then our stories together. Right. And if we're both interested in 2s using what do you call it? Like if you want to make ceramics, you've got the thing that spins around the wheel. The wheel. 1s So that's great that we both are interested in that. But what if that's the only interest we have? Then isn't it going to get boring? How do we meet people where we've got some like if you took a Venn diagram, there's some commonalities, but there's enough outside the part in the middle. 2s Does that make sense? Yeah. So I think part of my suggestion around meeting people around common interests is that it's an easy beginner's way to do it because it really makes it more accessible. You can talk to people about what you're interested in. You don't really have to moderate or change that. You can info dump on the subjects that you love. And people aren't really going to bat an eyelash because you were there for that subject. Now, an example is my husband and I, we have almost nothing in common, but we have the same sense of humor and we constantly joke and play and we have an amazing time. We just always have fun. But we don't have anything in common. He's into music and he's into politics, and I could care less. So it really depends on the individual and it depends on what your priorities are and where you are as far as developing your social relationships, right? Yeah. I think 2s that's great that you all can have so little in common. But it shows, though, that imagine if everything was in common, you'd probably want to kill each other, right? So the fact that you have not signed out death warrants for each other is probably a good sign. 5s It's a challenge, though, like you said, because we tend to get to the point of maybe having an interest in somebody because we've shared some experiences. Them 1s that are usually based on some kind of like well, I met them at this restaurant that we both like. They happen to be at the same time, whatever it might be. 2s But sometimes I like to be away from people that have interests that I have. I like to try to find something else to do because I start to make myself crazy sometimes. 2s It's interesting. 2s Relationships, they're so complicated. They are all like onions. So many layers and so many facets. And we're always learning in relationships. I mean, if you really want to get to know yourself, get into relationships, and every time you deal with a trigger, you're going to learn something more about yourself, because that trigger is a reflection of something you see in that other person that's within you that you need to deal with. 4s I have certain triggers that I try to avoid. Them going off. 3s When you think about it, we have to know our boundaries. Right? Right. 1s But I think if we could all have a level of self awareness that took us to the point where we were so in tune with who we are and what we respond to, that we could avoid those things that we want to not respond to and then embrace the ones that we do. But 1s there was a business philosopher named Jim Rohn Rohn, and I'm going to paraphrase this, but he said, humans are the only animal that God gave the dignity of choice, and he could have made a much better choice. 1s And us having this menu of things we can do in front of us is not always we don't always make the best decisions. So whereas a cat a cat jumps on a stove, the snow is hot, they're not doing that again. It's going to be different this time. It's going to be different. Right. And that's one of the things that fascinates me the most, is us and our seeming inability to always do what seems to be the right thing. It's not that hard to figure it out, but we usually make it difficult. And I'm sure you have to hear that a lot. 1s Definitely. Everyone learns their lessons at a different speed. And so if you're having the same what about it? Issues come up over and over. You never learn the lesson that's a bad speed you want to learn is the question. Yeah. 2s I think sometimes we are too smart for all good, though. We think that we can outsmart the universe, and we can. 3s I've never had much luck doing that anyways. It's 2s it's like an evil laugh that you have, like this knowing laugh. Like I knowing. Exactly what you're talking about. Yeah, exactly. 2s There's only so much control we can exert. Well, 2s that's the thing right there because 2s have you read any of the Stoic philosophers like Marcus Cerlius, Seneca? They tend to work with my mind in that if I can avoid, 1s you know, 1s worrying about things I have no control over if I can avoid that, I'm in great shape. We spend way, or at least I spend generally my default is to spend more time on the things I have no control over versus the things I do. And it should be the other way around. Franklin said we spend 90% of our time focused on the 90% of things we have no control over instead of 90%. And it is a free feeling. Ben Franklin was probably neuro divergent. Yeah, absolutely. But why do we with torture and we do it and I'm really getting much better at it, but I'm still a work in progress. I'm not always able to give up. That because we want to control everything. Early side. 1s Yeah. There's sort of a way of looking at life, a reframing that can make things a little easier takes a lot of processing. But I'll just tell you what it is. So we tend to kind of look at life as a something that we can white knuckle. We can just sort of control every element of life. But that's really not how life works. Life is kind of like an ocean and you just have to be a surfer that rides the waves. And sometimes you get knocked off your surfboard and sometimes you ride that wave and you come out of the tube by the end and it's the most beautiful thing in the world and you just don't know what's going to happen. But if you can look at life like an ocean and you're the surfer on that ocean, it can make it a little easier because we really don't know 1s what events in our lives mean. We don't know if, say you break your foot 1s if that's a good thing or a bad thing. It could seem like a totally horrible thing. But then say, you know, you're in your twenty s and they start recruiting soldiers for the war and they come to your town and they recruit you to go to war, but you have a broken foot so that saved your life. So it's hard to say, you know, what's a good thing and what's a bad thing in life. So if we can see life as an ocean and us as a surfer surfing that ocean it's just a really nice reframe to kind of let go of that control. I think you're absolutely right too, because I don't know who said it. Somebody famous said it. They said that nothing is either good or bad. 2s You assign either good or bad on your own. That's your decision. But nothing is either good or bad. And with an ocean you have two choices flow or fight. And spite doesn't win when the foe is that big anyway, you're in a riptide. You better not fight it. No. You got to get out of it to the side. You cannot swim with the current. Yeah, exactly. Well, listen, I hope that I can figure out how to create an episode out of this. I think I can. 2s I'm not an expert, so I'm going to do my best. No worries 1s at all. 3s We talked about enough nuggets that I think I'll be able to pull some stuff out that will be of benefit to people. But 2s I really appreciate your time and I would love to have you back sometime too. Yeah, absolutely. I would love that. Can I just do a little plug for the end for how to contact me and everything? Okay, thank you. Let me just say so thank you so much for joining us. Michelle. If somebody wants to get in touch with you, what are the best ways that they can do that? Yeah, sandy, thank you so much for having me on the show. I really enjoyed it. You can find me at my website, which is Michelle markman.com. It's Michellemarkman.com book. A 30 minutes transformation. Call there. It's totally free. It'll change your life. And I really appreciate you having me on the show and thank you so much. Thank you. It was a pleasure. It was a lot of fun. I'm sure that we've got some great stuff here for people. So you have a great rest of your week and we will talk soon. Thank you. Thank you. Awesome. Thanks, Sandy. Thank you so much. You have a great weekend, okay? Thank you. You too. Okay, wonderful.

Michelle MarkmanProfile Photo

Michelle Markman

ND Relationship Coach

I am a late diagnosed autistic individual and ND relationship coach. I help ND individuals harness their unique super powers to create and strengthen relationships develop a sense of community and cultivate a life they love.